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Post by Neo Nibu on Sept 3, 2008 21:21:34 GMT -5
Well since there is some interest in the idea of a King, I have re-written what I had giving it a more balance feel. I have talken to Teivo and he in agreement with it.
The region is dying this is actually the first post in about a week...
I don't want to see IN continue like it is... and not to 'brag' about my recruiting abilities but my other region that had 8 nations a month ago now is up to 45. If I was made King I could promise to have IN into the 40s within 2weeks or so. Even higher with time.
I assume very few will actually read this, but i'd like to really do something if none of you will.
I. Implementing of Constitutional Monarchy
A. This document is to be considered part of the constitution/“code”
B. The King is bound to the constitution/“code”
C. If this document is pasted Neo Nibu will be named first King of International Nations and serve until inactiveness, retirement, leaving IN, stepping down to a successor, choosing a successor, or of an abolishment of this document
II. King
A. Powers & Rights
-Is to serve as High Judge and Founder
-Can pass or change laws without senate approval, but cannot alter the constitution/“code”
-Can eject anyone with less than 100 posts on the forum from the region and/or forum without a trial
-Is to run the forum
-Can appoint anyone to any government office
-Can appoint/demote Dukes
B. Power of the People
-Head of Senate can hold a vote to over turn any decision made by the King with 60% of voter support
-With support of the majority of Dukes and 85% of Voters in a vote the King can be dethroned or have a successor step in
III. Duke
A. Any government Official can be promoted to the rank of Duke by the King
B. Duke is to serve until inactiveness, Impeachment, retirement, or leaving International Nations
C. There is to be 1 Duke for every 15 nations within IN, with a minimum of 2
D. Rights & Duties
-Once appoint/elected to an office, can bypass future elections unless during election period is challenged by someone for the office
-Can hold multiple offices
-Has right to be a MOD on the forum
-Must fulfill the duties of his appoint/elected office(s)
I am also establishing a politcal party to support my cause.
Neo International Nations Evolutionary Party
The Number Nine Movement
Party Values
-To promote a Constitutional Monarchy lead by Neo Nibu
-To maintain a high level of activity in IN
-To keep regional size above 40 nations and growing
If anyone is interested in joining let me know.
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Post by His Holiness King Of Penguins on Sept 4, 2008 17:17:37 GMT -5
No,
This is just another grab at power.
I don't care if you can be dethroned, you need a massive majority and a majority of the dukes who will most likley want to keep you as king as you give them power.
So no, no and no again.
And i can't believe Teivo would agree to this.
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Post by Neo Nibu on Sept 4, 2008 20:38:20 GMT -5
No offense auto, but I already knew your answer, and I didn't want to hear it, kinda hoped you wouldn't notice too.  We'll leave it to a vote. If you haven't noticed IN is going no where fast, we should have had elections awhile ago but no one wants to run... and if none of you are gonna do something you should let me. Related Thread: inations.proboards50.com/index.cgi?board=inecc&action=display&thread=925&page=1 |
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Post by Kardas on Sept 5, 2008 6:21:37 GMT -5
(finally I can get on the forums again)
I believe the King idea is the best way to save IN, but I feel the King's power is still too much.
The King is bound to the old constitution right?
The points I disagree with:
HOWEVER, the last thing I want happening to IN is what caused the dissolution of, for example, Trav Khar
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Post by Teivostan on Sept 5, 2008 9:05:47 GMT -5
Yes Auto I had agreed with it, simply because this region is practicaly dead and I don't want to see it forgotten.
Since many people are saying that one King would have too much power I'd like to suggest that there be two Kings/Presidents/Leaders/Dictators etc., each with an equal amount of power. If one King suggests a region changing decision then it must be approved by the other. One King would take control of the founder nation and another would take control of the root admin of these forums to prevent one King from overthrowing the other and to keep a balance of power.
These two Kings would have deputies chosen to appoint while they are too busy with RL issues, if a King becomes overly in-active the deputy will be automaticly appointed King.
To appoint Dukes both Kings must agree or he shall not be appointed.
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Post by Neo Nibu on Sept 5, 2008 11:53:46 GMT -5
"-Can pass or change laws without senate approval"
That doesn't include the power to change the constitution. Plus any decision made can be over turned. Although perhaps we can alter it to make everyone happy.
"-Can eject anyone with less than 100 posts on the forum from the region and/or forum without a trial"
That's more for new people who are causing trouble everyone here is already safe from that, but I don't care having that changed.
As for having two Kings I feel it would slow the process down, and who would be active enough to be the second? I half assume your suggesting yourself.
Also, if we did do two I think both would need the founder nation as to enter regional controls, or have one as the WA Delegate.
EDIT:
"The King is bound to the old constitution right?"
Yes he would, this document would be apart of the old one
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Post by His Holiness King Of Penguins on Sept 5, 2008 18:10:16 GMT -5
Yes the region is very inactive right now, but i think most of us are very busy, the time after the summer is always a pretty busy time and i haven't had any time to check up on these boards, only randomly. I should be back to some sort of activity now though.
I know im going to loose whatever vote is put up because everyone thinks a dictatorship is the best way to solve problems, i doubt it. Is this not what we fought against?
I have to say i put in alot of effort into making sure IN stayed democratic and if i was to be 100% honest i feel i have been let down by Teivo and others. Debro has explained that his time is very limited for sites like these which i can understand.
Twice i have tried to stop Nibu taking control, twice i have done that but now people are all to happy to let Nibu have all the power.
Im not going to make a fight, i will vote against and will see what happens.
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Post by Teivostan on Sept 6, 2008 4:30:16 GMT -5
Many of the veteran nations look like that they've left for good, if IN is to stay as an active region we need more recruits and at the moment nobody seems to be bothering. The problem with a democratic system is it wont work if nobody is going to vote or run for any positions and it's a fairly slow process.
Perhaps a constitutional moarchy can be implemented just until there's a relatively large amount of activity again.
If the two King system doesn't work then perhaps a Prime Minister and King? The Prime Minister makes most/all decisions then the King must decide if they're to be passed (any major decisions that is). In this case Nibu would most likely be Prime Minister and another person be King. This wouldn't interfear much with your decision making Nibu and would make sure that you don't go mad with power or something. To secure the King's position he would be in control of the founder nation. The Prime Minister would be WA Delegate and have access to the regional controls of course.
The more I think about it, the more reluctant I am to agree to handing total control to Nibu.
I'm sorry if I'm letting you down Auto but I'd rather see an IN active and "ruled" by Nibu than an IN with hardly any active members.
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Post by Kardas on Sept 6, 2008 7:11:10 GMT -5
Here are my amendments to the points I proposed:
-Can pass or change laws without senate approval
never mind this one. I didn't see the HD could hold a vote to overturn a decision with 60% voter support.
-Can eject anyone with less than 100 posts on the forum from the region and/or forum without a trial if the nation is believed to be a threat to the harmony of the region (or the reigon itself).
This is so that we won't have people expelled because of their views on IN, or that the King does not like them.
As for the two Kings idea or King and PM idea, that could be confusing. I think with this amendment the King's power is sufficiently limited.
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Post by His Holiness King Of Penguins on Sept 6, 2008 11:35:23 GMT -5
Many of the veteran nations look like that they've left for good, if IN is to stay as an active region we need more recruits and at the moment nobody seems to be bothering. The problem with a democratic system is it wont work if nobody is going to vote or run for any positions and it's a fairly slow process. Perhaps a constitutional moarchy can be implemented just until there's a relatively large amount of activity again. If the two King system doesn't work then perhaps a Prime Minister and King? The Prime Minister makes most/all decisions then the King must decide if they're to be passed (any major decisions that is). In this case Nibu would most likely be Prime Minister and another person be King. This wouldn't interfear much with your decision making Nibu and would make sure that you don't go mad with power or something. To secure the King's position he would be in control of the founder nation. The Prime Minister would be WA Delegate and have access to the regional controls of course. The more I think about it, the more reluctant I am to agree to handing total control to Nibu. I'm sorry if I'm letting you down Auto but I'd rather see an IN active and "ruled" by Nibu than an IN with hardly any active members. If nibu can go mad with power with basically only the forum then this is like handing IN over on a plate. You are in some sort of other world, do you think turning IN into a dictatorship will get us more members? nope. I seriously can't believe that you are supporting this, i thought we were all agreed but mabey you were some sort of nibu pawn all along... |
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Post by Teivostan on Sept 6, 2008 12:54:25 GMT -5
At the time, Nibu had access to the forum admin AND the founder nation. In the King and Prime Minister system I suggested Nibu would be the Prime Minister and somebody else would be King, the one in charge of the founder. That would secure Nibu from going "mad" again.
Ah yes, that's why I fought along with you and Debro to get the founder back, that's why I suggested that we lie to Nibu during negotiations and that's why I'm beginning to question giving total control over to Nibu. Yes, that's a perfectly logical explenation to why I'm kind of agreeing to this...
I am certainly not a Nibu pawn, if I were don't you think I would have given him the founder?
I'd be more than happy to see IN be run democraticly but the proccess is too slow for anything to be done right at this point along with the problem of not having any voters...
Unless there is some sort of "power sharing" I will be voting against this. I am pretty much against giving Nibu the founder.
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Post by His Holiness King Of Penguins on Sept 6, 2008 13:02:32 GMT -5
At the time, Nibu had access to the forum admin AND the founder nation. In the King and Prime Minister system I suggested Nibu would be the Prime Minister and somebody else would be King, the one in charge of the founder. That would secure Nibu from going "mad" again. Ah yes, that's why I fought along with you and Debro to get the founder back, that's why I suggested that we lie to Nibu during negotiations and that's why I'm beginning to question giving total control over to Nibu. Yes, that's a perfectly logical explenation to why I'm kind of agreeing to this... I am certainly not a Nibu pawn, if I were don't you think I would have given him the founder? I'd be more than happy to see IN be run democraticly but the proccess is too slow for anything to be done right at this point along with the problem of not having any voters... Unless there is some sort of "power sharing" I will be voting against this. I am pretty much against giving Nibu the founder. Well for one of the people who did so much to make IN democratic, turning it into a dictatorship is a rarther big step. You probaly weren't a nibu pawn but i still feel let down. I don't really care any more, i have put in so much effort but then people decide they want a dicator, vote for what you want because making it look pretty with all these addons does not change the fact that this will turn IN into nothing more than a dicatorship. |
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Post by Teivostan on Sept 6, 2008 13:16:34 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but in my opinion this is a necesary step to an active IN. If we go with the King and PM way the King can be given the right to turn IN into a democratic system once he deems IN active enough. I don't want to see IN ruled by a constitutional monarchy forever, just to get IN active again. That's it.
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Post by Neo Nibu on Sept 6, 2008 18:52:05 GMT -5
Auto, I’m sorry we end up on opposite sides, but just saying no to everything isn’t productive. I hope down the road you will see the positive effects and will come around to our way of thinking.
Alight, I've been thinking it over and I think I might have an answer. I think the whole two kings / PM and king idea is a bit confusing, if we do this I will need the founder nation, plain and simple. I feel this might work out to please everyone.
IV. Ethics Minister
A. Rights & Duties
-Is to share the founder nation with the king
-At any point may change the PW of the founder nation if he/she deems the king to be getting out of control, and then can begin the process of dethroning or have a successor step in. If unsuccessful is to return the PW to the King
B. Terms & requirements
-Is to be elected by Senate and serve until
inactiveness, Impeachment, retirement, or leaving International Nations
-Must be have a minimum of 1,700 posts on the regional forum
-Must be a member of the Senate
If this is the route we'd want to go, I think personally Debro might be would be a good choice as he’s kinda the “people’s champion” , but also Kardas as he’s more active and less involved with the prior ordeal.
“-Can eject anyone with less than 100 posts on the forum from the region and/or forum without a trial if the nation is believed to be a threat to the harmony of the region (or the reigon itself)”
Yes I think that works better.
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Post by Kardas on Sept 6, 2008 19:16:22 GMT -5
at the moment Nibu's idea seems favorable, but I will side with Teivostan on the fact that this will be temporary. Nibu's ethics minister idea seems good, and I feel we should have EITHER one King and Prime Minister, or the King and the Ethics minister.
There is one hole in Nibu's Ethics Minister idea however- the King may change the Founder PW before the Ethics Minister does.
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Post by Teivostan on Sept 6, 2008 19:32:51 GMT -5
Debro would be a very good Ethics Minister if he were active. Kardas would make a good Ethics Minister too, if IN is going down the road of a Constitutional Monarchy I'll vote for Kardas as Ethics Minister, if there's a vote on it and if he's running of course.
I still don't see how the King and PM system is confusing though. All the King would have to do is approve major decisions which would effect the entire region such as constitutional reforms and war. Much like the Irish president does. Not much real power, doesn't usually object, just occasional approval and act as a figure head. In principle the English Queen (and I think the Dutch one too) can object to laws which countries within their Comonwealth put forward but hardly, if ever it happens.
The problem I have with the Ethics Minister is that he would still be sharing the founder with you Nibu and if I remember correctly before your first "throning" you had the same access to the founder. Ethics minister wouldn't really have any power, if you decided you could do exactly the same as last time, without warning just overthrow the Ethics Minister and gain total control.
I'd still like to push forward the King/President and PM idea. I'm sorry, but I'm against giving the founder password to Nibu. Forget the 2 King system.
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Post by Neo Nibu on Sept 6, 2008 19:53:44 GMT -5
True, but it seems silly to do that after all the trouble, gone down that road didn't work out don't plan to do it again.
And when we feel the time to return IN as it once was has come I will do so.
Plus I have my WA nation to work elsewhere. And setting my self up as WA Delegate here would be a hassle.
If we're doing this I will need you to put your faith in me, I want to move forward and if I did what you fear it would being going just the opposite and it be really pointless.
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Post by His Holiness King Of Penguins on Sept 6, 2008 21:53:23 GMT -5
I think you all know what i think.
But when this is passed it will indeed be one of the darkest days in IN wether you know it or not.
I don't want to go all morally but when i created the region it was described as a region where all nations are welcome, this is true, but i also put democratic.
Its sad for me because im watching this years old region slowly turn into a dictatorship.
And as i have said dressing it up with nice words and addons like prime minister ect is just to make the not sure people happy, if you strip off the useless addons your left with a dictatorship and dictator so i just hope you know what your getting us into.
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Post by Kardas on Sept 7, 2008 10:53:11 GMT -5
@ Auto: I think you're overreacting a bit too much. Both Teivo and I feel that the King would have too much region power. We're trying to get a happy medium, and once everything's up again, we can return this place to its original state. I assure you our constitution won't be affected.
For clarification on my amendment, 'people posing a threat to the harmony of the region or the region itself' would include people like trolls, griefers, spammers, flamers and raiders. so you know.
Other than the WA nation problem with Nibu, I say Teivo's PM/King idea is best.
I prefer not to give the King sole Founder control, but since Nibu's WA nation is elsewhere that might be a problem.
Once last thing, if the King/PM/Ethics Minister breaks any part of the code, what do we do? Take action as written in the constitution?
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Post by Neo Nibu on Sept 7, 2008 14:07:11 GMT -5
"Once last thing, if the King/PM/Ethics Minister breaks any part of the code, what do we do? Take action as written in the constitution?"
Yea, but... other than the fear that one of them would change the pw of the founder nation, what else could they break? Having multi accounts on the forum is the only other 'big' crime to really fear.
Basically everyone region in NS has one person controlling the founder nation, and we sit here debating. And really what's the worse that could happen if I had control of it? I never booted anyone from the region before. And having control of it would be only an addition drive for me to work harder for the region. I don't mind sharing it with the "Ethics Minister" it's my fault you worry.
I personally feel that my 'Ethics Minister' would work best. For the longest time I had part control of the founder nation, you really not need worry so much. I really should have just tried to do this legally to begin with so we wouldn't have this as an issue...
I think you guys should just trust me and let me do things my way, and with a little bit of time you will see you had nothing to fear all along.
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We'll leave it to a vote.
