Constitutional Monarchy

[Teivostan]

but since Nibu's WA nation is elsewhere that might be a problem.

That's not an overly important problem. Speaking of your WA nation Nibu, what exactly is it doing that's so important?

if the King/PM/Ethics Minister breaks any part of the code, what do we do? Take action as written in the constitution?

Yup.


The original proposal was to turn IN into a Constitutional Monarchy. The King and PM idea is what European Constitutional Monarchies do in real life anyway, except of course they democraticly elect PM. I don't see a problem with it. It's not confusing and it wont interfere with the PM's decisions very often.

After thinking it over I will only settle for a European style Constitutional Monarchy (without the elected PM). If any more power is given to the PM I feel that he will be much too powerful and vote no against this proposal. This is my opinion and I will not be persuaded otherwise. And that's that.

I don't advise Nibu to push this any further as he's more than lucky that the region is even considering this.

[Neo Nibu]

"Speaking of your WA nation Nibu, what exactly is it doing that's so important?"

Well it is currently off in another smaller region as the WA Delegate, I'd prefer to leave nameless. I am involved in two different worlds of NS. One here and one in a sort of 'Empire' that consist of several regions...

I only started up this idea again because a few of you posted comments wanting it, and i'm willing to switch my focus back here, but i'm not sure if it really be worth it with this King/PM idea. I do have other regions to recruit for...

It might be easier if we had an actually document to look at. Tevio, can you alter the current proposed document to fit your King/PM idea so I have a better understanding of what you mean?

[His Holiness King Of Penguins]

Just a thought,
Since you are all wanting to bow down to a dictator but are cautious about Nibu then why does Nibu even have to be the dictator given his record?

[Neo Nibu]

I think "dictator" is a strong word to use but...

I'm the one who holds the ability to save IN, most active (although these little discussion always spark activity), and the top recruiter, and I got the experience of past and present region that i've run/ran.

If you think someone would be better, than who?


The more and more we discuss this the farther it goes away from what I was hoping to see happen.

With the PM/King idea, we'd have someone being the 'King' and myself as the PM. I feel that PM would be replacing the office of Head Delegate, and their is the trouble of getting myself as the WA delegate.

I think it be just as much of a "European style Constitutional Monarchy" with the way I've suggested... perhaps we can give more power to the Ethics Minister or Head Delegate. What type of more power i'm not sure, if anyone has an idea let me know.

I talked to you Teivo before hand you were in agreement with the document I had suggested then and at one point Kardas was saying "I think with this amendment the King's power is sufficiently limited."

I think we all need to remember that this is just a game, and in the end I think the best decision would be to go with the Ethics Minister variation.

[Teivostan]

I. Implementing of Constitutional Monarchy
A. This document is to be considered part of the constitution/“code”
B. The King and Prime Minister are bound to the constitution/“code”
C. If this document is pasted (King's name) will be named first King of International Nations and serve until inactiveness, retirement, leaving IN, stepping down to a successor, choosing a successor, or of an abolishment of this document
D. If this document is pasted (Prime Minister's name) will be named first Prime Minister of International Nations and serve until inactiveness, retirement, leaving IN, stepping down to a successor, choosing a successor, or of an abolishment of this document

II. King/Queen
A. Powers & Rights
-Is to serve as Founder
-King's approval is required for constitutional ammendments and acts of war submitted by the Prime Minister.
-Can appoint/demote Dukes
-Can restore the democratic order in IN when he deems the region active enough
B. Power of the People
-With support of the majority of Dukes and 85% of Voters in a vote the King can be dethroned or have a successor step in

III. Prime Minister
A. Powers & Rights
-Is to serve as High Judge and WA Delegate
-Must gain the approval of the King to change laws, alter the constitution/“code” and to declare war on another region.
-Can eject anyone with less than 100 posts on the forum from the region and/or forum without a trial
-Is to run the forum
-Can appoint anyone to any government office
-Can appoint/demote Dukes
B. Power of the People
-Head of Senate can hold a vote to over turn any decision made by the Prime Minister with 60% of voter support
-With support of the majority of Dukes and 85% of Voters in a vote the Prime Minister can be dethroned or have a successor step in

III. Duke
A. Any government Official can be promoted to the rank of Duke by the King or/and Prime Minister
B. Duke is to serve until inactiveness, Impeachment, retirement, or leaving International Nations
C. There is to be 1 Duke for every 15 nations within IN, with a minimum of 2
D. Rights & Duties
-Once appoint/elected to an office, can bypass future elections unless during election period is challenged by someone for the office
-Can hold multiple offices
-Has right to be a MOD on the forum
-Must fulfill the duties of his appoint/elected office(s)



@auto: That's actually a good point. Bear in mind that such a person would have to be active and dedicated enough. Are you suggesting yourself since you are pretty active?

[His Holiness King Of Penguins]

Sept 7, 2008 16:35:19 GMT -5 Teivostan said:

I. Implementing of Constitutional Monarchy
A. This document is to be considered part of the constitution/“code”
B. The King and Prime Minister are bound to the constitution/“code”
C. If this document is pasted (King's name) will be named first King of International Nations and serve until inactiveness, retirement, leaving IN, stepping down to a successor, choosing a successor, or of an abolishment of this document
D. If this document is pasted (Prime Minister's name) will be named first Prime Minister of International Nations and serve until inactiveness, retirement, leaving IN, stepping down to a successor, choosing a successor, or of an abolishment of this document

II. King/Queen
A. Powers & Rights
-Is to serve as Founder
-King's approval is required for constitutional ammendments and acts of war submitted by the Prime Minister.
-Can appoint/demote Dukes
-Can restore the democratic order in IN when he deems the region active enough
B. Power of the People
-With support of the majority of Dukes and 85% of Voters in a vote the King can be dethroned or have a successor step in

III. Prime Minister
A. Powers & Rights
-Is to serve as High Judge and WA Delegate
-Must gain the approval of the King to change laws, alter the constitution/“code” and to declare war on another region.
-Can eject anyone with less than 100 posts on the forum from the region and/or forum without a trial
-Is to run the forum
-Can appoint anyone to any government office
-Can appoint/demote Dukes
B. Power of the People
-Head of Senate can hold a vote to over turn any decision made by the Prime Minister with 60% of voter support
-With support of the majority of Dukes and 85% of Voters in a vote the Prime Minister can be dethroned or have a successor step in

III. Duke
A. Any government Official can be promoted to the rank of Duke by the King or/and Prime Minister
B. Duke is to serve until inactiveness, Impeachment, retirement, or leaving International Nations
C. There is to be 1 Duke for every 15 nations within IN, with a minimum of 2
D. Rights & Duties
-Once appoint/elected to an office, can bypass future elections unless during election period is challenged by someone for the office
-Can hold multiple offices
-Has right to be a MOD on the forum
-Must fulfill the duties of his appoint/elected office(s)



@auto: That's actually a good point. Bear in mind that such a person would have to be active and dedicated enough. Are you suggesting yourself since you are pretty active?

No,
I hate this idea and the last thing i would want is to be leading a dictatorship.
And Nibu we all know this is a game, but we have all spent alot of time on it in the past and are reasonably active now so its not nice when something you spend time on turns sour.
Also the dictator or "King" has a large amount of power, and has the founder nation plus they need a majority of dukes (that have been given power and probaly like it) and a massive majority of the population to be dethroned to it would be highly possible that they could.
A. go crazy with power
B. Never turn IN democratic again
C. Be really, really annoying.

[Neo Nibu]

Ah jeez I just don't know anymore lol...

I guess at some point we could hold a vote to decide which version to vote on officially.

I've said all I can in my previous post... I just have a hard time see this working out...

EDIT: (didn't see auto post)

"reasonably active now"

I laugh at that. Before I posted this topic no one had posted anything in over a week. And in the time before it, it was like one post a week if that.

We're only "reasonably active now" because we're talking about this and for no other reason.

I'm sorry your so against this, but sometimes governments need to evolve. Honestly it is a game, and I think we can still have just as much fun with a Constitutionally Monarchy as we did a democracy. Plus as both Teivo and Kardas have said this would be temporary.

[Teivostan]

Right, let's vote on it to get it over and done with.

So it's either your idea Nibu, my idea or leave IN as it is?

[Neo Nibu]

Well I think we should hold a non-official vote to decide on which version.

Then hold the official vote on whether to pass it or not.


The other bit of it is if we go your way(Teivo's) who is the King? I assume my way I would be king and your way having me as PM. But we can probably figure this out after the non-official vote...

I really don't know how this will work if it goes your way though. It's gonna take over a week or two just to set me up as the WA Delegate, plus I'll have to deal with disappointment in another region. In fact in your version i'd probably like King just as much as PM...

I'm just gonna hope people like my version better, as it will make this hold transition and my life easier.

Here is a 'hard copy' of my version with the new Ethics Minister and minor changes Kardas suggested in it. I have also lowered the % needed to over throw from 85 to 70 to make Auto a little more easy.


I. Implementing of Constitutional Monarchy
A. This document is to be considered part of the constitution/“code”
B. The King is bound to the constitution/“code”
C. If this document is pasted Neo Nibu will be named first King of International Nations and serve until inactiveness, retirement, leaving IN, stepping down to a successor, choosing a successor, or of an abolishment of this document

II. King
A. Powers & Rights
-Is to serve as High Judge and Founder
-Can pass or change laws without senate approval, but cannot alter the constitution/“code”
-Can eject anyone with less than 100 posts on the forum from the region and/or forum without a trial if the nation is believed to be a threat to the harmony of the region (or the reigon itself).
-Is to run the forum
-Can appoint anyone to any government office
-Can appoint/demote Dukes
B. Power of the People
-Head of Senate can hold a vote to over turn any decision made by the King with 60% of voter support
-With support of the majority of Dukes and 70% of Voters in a vote the King can be dethroned or have a successor step in

III. Duke
A. Any government Official can be promoted to the rank of Duke by the King
B. Duke is to serve until inactiveness, Impeachment, retirement, or leaving International Nations
C. There is to be 1 Duke for every 15 nations within IN, with a minimum of 2
D. Rights & Duties
-Once appoint/elected to an office, can bypass future elections unless during election period is challenged by someone for the office
-Can hold multiple offices
-Has right to be a MOD on the forum
-Must fulfill the duties of his appoint/elected office(s)

IV. Ethics Minister
A. Rights & Duties
-Is to share the founder nation with the king
-At any point may change the PW of the founder nation if he/she deems the king to be getting out of control, and then can begin the process of dethroning or have a successor step in. If unsuccessful is to return the PW to the King
B. Terms & requirements
-Is to be elected by Senate and serve until
inactiveness, Impeachment, retirement, or leaving International Nations
-Must be have a minimum of 1,700 posts on the regional forum
-Must be a member of the Senate

[Teivostan]

Well who wants to be King if this goes through? We would just decide on who we think is best suited to the job I suppose.

[Neo Nibu]

I think we should vote on which version first, but if it goes your way I do assume it be you as King and me as PM... or maybe Kardas as King in your vers, idk...

We should just vote on the ver, technically we have no HoS since elections are long gone undone... and Debro our last one is inactive, i'm surprised he hasn't stated an opinion on this... so why don't you go make the poll?

Afterwards we can work out the details...

[Teivostan]

Right, the poll is set up.

I'll run for King if nobody else wants to, that is if my Constitutional Monarchy idea is the one voted in of course.

[satanicwarfare1]

i say no too, ive seen this region in worse shape, everything will befine/ Everything has its ups and downs, well that is except when you have a king, then everything is a;; downhill.

[His Holiness King Of Penguins]

Sept 9, 2008 10:25:49 GMT -5 satanicwarfare1 said:

i say no too, ive seen this region in worse shape, everything will befine/ Everything has its ups and downs, well that is except when you have a king, then everything is a;; downhill.

Very true.

[Teivostan]

ive seen this region in worse shape

It's never been this in-active before. Many veteran nations have left, nobody had posted for a while until the Constitutional Monarchy was mentioned, making it impossible to run a democratic region without voters.
What worse shape have you seen the region in?

Auto, are you telling me that you'd rather IN die than have it ruled by a Constitutional Moarchy and let it regain activity. In the past you've made the point of IN going through quiet periods like this and regaining activity, but that was when all the veteran nations were active. Deutsgarten, Kaleckton, Kazzerland, Cassinecro have almost certainly left forever while Ironwolves, Northern Australis a few others and even Debro have become so in-active they haven't posted in weeks, in some cases months. The only nations left are Nibu, yourself Auto, Kardas, SatanicWarfare (This being his first post in a long, long time) and me. These are hardly enough nations to run a succesful democracy especially since not all of us check on the forums every day, not to mention the fact that hardly anyone wants to take on the responibility of a government position. IN has dropped from 40 nations to under 30 in a matter of weeks, that's not good.

I'm sorry but IN will never regain activity if IN goes on like this.


If the Constitutional Monarchy does not pass the vote I'll be leaving the region as it's pointless to be a member of an extremely in-active region.

[Neo Nibu]

Very true

[His Holiness King Of Penguins]

I dont care.
Its going to pass anyway because somehow a dictatorship is a quick fix, i have no idea how and whatever happens to improve most things could still happen while keeping the democracy.
Lets look at the facts, people are getting older, people are getting bussier, more and more people have no time for nationstates or have long periods of incativity, this is totally natural and is why we need a big recruitment push once in a while to replenish our member numbers.
How this will magically be fixed in a dictatorship, i have no idea.
Im still very busy but i do have more time now, i realise you can be very active right now and are frustrated that this is not the case for everyone but i think you need to realise real life can take up alot of time and nationstates is not at the top of anyones to do list.

[Kardas]

Well... it is Auto's right to say no...
As for the WA nation problem should we opt for Teivo, here's a quick fix I suggest: someone (or no one) becomes the WA delegate and Nibu just TGs him to say what is necessary. If the WA person refuses, that would be in violation of the constitution.

Not too confusing is it?

[Neo Nibu]

I don't know how well that's gonna work...

Listen I think you guys should trust me with the founder nation and use my 'ethics minister' way. Infact we could set it up so we have two Ethics Minister and continue have the founder nation in a multitude of hands. I think that it would be a more than fair compromise. If we do it anyother way it's just gonna be a hassle and slow down the process which is the opposite of what we're going for.

[Kardas]

Okay Nibu, you've pretty much convinced me. there's one last thing though:
These are the only people legible to be Dukes:
Nibu, Debro, Kardas, Archaix, Primus/Republicas. And only of these people are active.